For example, priests cannot conduct divine liturgy without laity present, the liturgy cannot proceed without the participation of the laity saying amen during various parts of the liturgy and prayers, and bishops cannot ordain priests with the amen of the laity in the congregation. I can hardly stand to read that section in my Bible, much less watch it acted out. Dallas, please reconsider your position. Also, your letter simply further bolsters credibility of the excellent work from the Elephants Debt and Julie Roys. Law Prof: Years later, the church long ago destroyed by heavy abuse and the former members scattered, a number of them atheists today, that drama pastor is now into the New Age. holding fast the faithful word (1 Peter 4:14). We all know who to go to who can explain the meaning of a passage with more insight than anyone else. Its sad to have lived to such a ripe old age to witness a generation that doesnt respect their elders as they ought. Founded in 1988, it has grown to seven campuses in the Chicago metropolitan area. That incident was only the tip of the iceberg. I feel like all of the verses you quoted would work just as well if it was translated the older, mature believers in the church. I see nothing denoting an office. It seems like to me that in a group of people, these things sort themselves out without anyone declaring it to be a position and appointing people to it. I doubt that the facts will stop MacDonald from making an unrepentant comeback. Ken F (aka Tweed): I only point out that the historical evidence is not what we protestants want it to be. I share this for all who, like me, are overcome with new sadness, pain and loss amidst the HBC, Willow, Catholic church, ECFA, SBC, GFA, etc. apostle-schmapostle. And of course you. I just found out about it a few minutes ago. The neocalvinist church where I was an elder, which started off without one big head leader who called himself pastor, and people generally treating people decently, lasted a year or so before the guys found this amazing, godly 5-point calvinist whod been on John MacArthurs staff at GCC and had been a leader in SGMand then he took over and then he brought in his right-hand man from another state to be the leader of the elder team and then those two decided that the elders in place had been given too much unbiblical power over the pastor and so we all had to cede all authority to him and just be good friends without all these unbiblical checks and balances on the man whom the Lord had hand-picked to be over us. ME MAN! Both HBC & WC had a plurality of elders and a single pastor as the head of their church. The posting of it on this website is unfortunate, as are many of the false rumors in the comments both here and on Twitter from anonymous people. be in sin, The time for half measures is over. Watch a Sermon. Because I was asked to consider serving on the elder board there three days before I leftand the topic of 1Tim 3 wasnt brought up. I must be having a rough night. They been negotiating a retirement package before all the properties foreclose and theres no more cash! Since then, the output of Christ-adoring songs from various worship team members has continued to accelerate. The first step for anyone who insists upon an institution with paid leaders (I would argue against such) is to limit those salaries to moderate living wages, in line with or less than what the majority of their members live with. It is long past time Jenkins spoke up. Every jot and every tittle is just as if the Almighty is still thundering out of Horeb through Paul. Further, a cental message of the Bible, as I learned over many, many years, is that mankind is fallen, and religious leaders/system are fallen, in many ways more fallen than the secular/hunanistic world that so many religous leaders rail against. Cool bands, espresso coffee, relevant sermons, fun and fellowship, etc, In the words of the Prophets Emerson, Lake, and Palmer: They are increasing in excellence in academics and athletics, and all that God has in store for the next chapter. Dallas Jenkins is the creator, director and co-writer of The Chosen, which in addition to being the first multi-season series about the life of Christ is also the most successful media crowdfund of all time. Dallas Jenkins, the creator of the most successfully crowdfunded series of all time, "The Chosen," said he's setting the record straight for the last time on the matter of whether he believes Mormons are Christians. Ill have to ruminate on that a while. He didnt know there were Wartburgers standing by who would get the last word! Most of those Ive heard and experienced who tout elder-rule polity will say that this passage says anything but pew peons having any say in elder or pastor selection and/or accountability. in the interest of understanding, can you explain what you mean by grace? Its not all of it, but its certainly a substantive portion. . and the thought of gathering up ones gumption and taking risks is tiring. As our leaders prayed and sought to plant churches in the city of Chicago, a small congregation with a struggling church in Niles was looking for new life. Dallas, you have a lot to learn about life, and perhaps a lot to learn about the One Who spoke of whispers in the inner rooms being shouted from rooftops. Accept that and use this springboard given by God to be the leader God always intended you to be. Trust me, youre not. When we separate believers into clergy vs. laity, pulpit vs. pew, us vs. them failing to equip and mobilize the saints to do the work of the ministry we miss what God intended for His Church and fall short of living in the Kingdom of Heaven here and now. I was there (our kids went there for 2 too long years) and it was unreal what went on during and after that incident. Nobody wants this. But that tends to require some kind of a hierarchy where some subset of the larger group comes up with stated or unstated norms and consequences for violating the norms. The mega-masters vocalize Jesus occasionally and even talk about Him from a gospel vantage point. Thems shootin words in these parts (Christianville), maam. Where is Matt Chandler Pastor? If even one little thing God has brought me through can help someone else, I am exceeding glad. And you dare to point your finger at TWW participants, and courageous Dee? The official anniversary date was September 18, 2018. Vietnamese cuisine is good! We have seen God continue to change lives through the people and ministries of our church. This is indeed the plan of Satan, IMO, but when you try to suggest such a thing you are usually scoffed at as a conspiracy theorist. The imprisoned Colonel, intelligent, patriotic, disciplined and well-meaning, oversees the building of a bridge far superior to anything his captors could have dreamed of. This is no different then the very worst of false teachers in 2019. Years ago when I was experiencing a dark period spiritually someone said to me, Hang onto God! In response without thinking these words came out of my mouth (and I cant help but think it was the Holy Spirit speaking), I cant hang onto God right now but He will hang onto me. Q: Why do narcissists go to seminary? I was in a back and forth with some supporters of another well-known abusive megachurch leader recently, and one of the fans of the leader assumed I was posting under a made-up name and then slammed me for my cowardice as being anonymous. I firmly believe we are experiencing another reformation. No owner of a company will hire just anyone to oversee operations. None of the Synoptic gospels have that same setup. And she is asking everyone to back off. Hours . Churches will line up for this. Just as I have loved you, so you must love one another. They are all one and the same. The daughter of Matt Slick (big-gun-reformed-apologist) converted to fundamental atheism. A few final remarks concerning the pastors. What we have is countless people cutting him some slack . Our goals in writing these letters were accomplished, and its unfortunate that people are making them public. I am not suggesting that this is or is not the way Jesus intended for his church. Each church is completely autonomous, and thus, as it was written, appoint elders in every church, Truly, we need to follow the design God laid out for the church, for in so doing, we will benefit. Amy Moore: Truth the WHOLE truth is the only antidote More leaders must take a stand and shine the light of truth. And he didnt say crap, at least publicly. I wish that the decision to be a public figure in this scandal was left to the individual, not to third parties. Is anonymous code for little people or pew peons? Spot on with your comment. Some things are great for a public airing, where its completely right. Abused and misused, it stands in for everything from I can never be good enough for God to accept me, to sin-leveling, and license to ignore my humanity and to go ahead and do the kinds of things to others I wouldnt want done to me. Begin your journey with the prayer. Others became trapped by guilt and barely concealed extortion. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: I will admit I now find it kind of shocking that a guy who never knew Jesus in life could muscle his way in and call himself an apostle among the other apostles. I can completely understand why Dee wouldnt want people here to be dragging stuff out and speculating about a teenage boy. Lets face it, in this era one can access whatever superior teaching is preferred in the comfort of their home or car. What I see, I cant un-see; what I know I cant un-know its in my knower! It is not elaborate but adequate for what we seek to do for Gods Kingdom. hospitable Notice how you need to be part of this first hand, and not from a distance like on the world wide web for even unbelievers to see. Once you step out of that or can no longer take part, the machine moves on without you. They all seem to be on display at HBC. Most were started by a mere man who was convinced that his mission had more of a corner on the Truth than the rest. I feel like Jesus is a million miles off, and I know thats got to me my fault, not His, because frankly, I ignored Gods nudges at each and every abusive church we attended (there were three), its not like I can blame Him. You dont get to ask for silence now. The Church of the Living God needs to be on the alert for any ex-HBC executives/elders who served under MacDonald for more than 3 months. The wheels of justice turn slowly. You were part of promoting that brand, right? Just them asking me to become an elder told me something was wrong. into playing a role in a conspiracy they do not even grasp. Sometimes sincerely wrong. ANYONE who is still in that place who is not a child or a new believer is complicit and participated in shunning all who left. But isnt the model you commented on the same model that HBC followed and totally bollixed up? Precept Inductive Bible Study for Women. i look forward to chatting about it. If I understand your former function at Harvest (based on what you said in your letter) your job involved presenting and tightly controlling the Harvest narrative through media. His new incognito Floridian Santa Claus look wont stop this. It has reference to one who is seen as a care giver, or guardian for the church. Another campus grew out of the prayers and intercession of a core group in Chicagos North Shore. Without any explanation, Dee says she is convinced that Hall is repentant. Conversational-type sermons, contemporary worship music, come-as-you-are. can you elaborate on what went on during and after the showing of The Passion Of The Christ? not greedy for money Also, your letter simply further bolsters credibility of the excellent work from the Elephants Debt and Julie Roys. They engineered the black funds and the worst of the financial abuse. I hope that brings you some hope and encouragement today. Ill follow up with some details later. I dont think so. And I think (as an atheist heathen) that what people really need is community, not so much the religious stuff. Not for money or fame but just because you want to show them love. We must put our unreserved trust in God alone, and to at least some degree view all men even our most trusted loved ones by their fruits. TS00: Never, and I mean never, have I heard someone say, I would leave, but I just cant survive without the gifted teaching. MacDonald pulled Harvest Bible Chapel from the fellowship, breaking the link between the two. My new son-in-law is a United Methodist pastor. And theres a high likelihood this statement will get them expelled.. humans decide who gets to be an apostle, the process of which is surely not unbiased. In every church I was part of the pastor put forth a list of men to choose from, and the pastor was appointed from outside the church. By the end of the first century there are already offices of bishop, priest, and deacon. each of us has a unique view into the multi-faceted diamond of God/Jesus/Holy Spirit. Everyone who is of the Truth, who is a friend of the Truth and belongs to the Truth, hears and listens carefully to My voice. (Jesus, John 18:37). IMO, most people attend church to replace the lost family and community modern society has sacrificed. After all, Paige Patterson (big game hunter and ex-President, Southwestern Seminary) went on African safaris and used that experience to spread the gospel: https://swbts.edu/news/releases/game-banquet-uses-hunting-venue-spread-gospel/. Good words, Fisher. Check out the Stronger Mens Conference The Four Pillars of HBC: 1 - PROCLAIMING the authority of God's Word without apology. In the entire New Testament, the word only turns up once in the singular, 4th in a list of 5 useful gifts or roles (not official offices, near as I can tell) in Ephesians 4. ++++++++++++++. This disturbing senior pastor made fun of other HBC church leaders for their physical attributes that he deemed not up to snuff with his obvious sartorial sense and unsurpassed personal good looks. The depth of the pain experienced in my family (and many others whom I know/knew first-hand) was life-changing profoundly life-changing and permanently steered my child AWAY from faith. If a cynic like me can be taken in, naive, trusting folks are easy prey. Membership Covenants TS00: I dont see how you could get any further from the mark in your comment. That included giving James $20K-$30K a MONTH to spend just on T&E. you mention they are so far in and so much of their identity comes from being part of the group that the thought of just leaving would be like jumping off of a cliff?. PJ: Be wary of falling into the trappings you so boldly wish expose. I dont know, Ken. After a while, he and his band of yes-men elders drifted farther from the Main Thing, allowing the main thing to be about them and schemed in the shadows to preserve their ministry. Youre barking your wares to a wised-up crowd, and unlikely to terrify many here. Those of us who have come out of destructive groups like these can assure the survivors that there are other people out there who will love you back into soul health, there are other schools for your children who will treat them right, and some day you will look back on this time and thank God that He pulled you through it. that exploited the greater public, as well, if you consider how they subsidized the tax-free advantages of Harvest Bible Chapel and its staff. James mocking his own flock with his outrageous private Cabo party to end all parties, with the $50,000 magician, wont go unanswered. It's literally in his DNA, as his father Jerry is the co-author of the popular LeftBehind series of religious novels. What is an egalitarian group to do I when bullies take over? Christian celebrities would have no stage to perform on if they didnt have an audience willing to buy tickets. Lets face it, in this era one can access whatever superior teaching is preferred in the comfort of their home or car. What makes you think you get to excuse yourself from the table? I tracked down the World Magazine article on Jerry Jenkins gambling from which I had gleaned what little info I had and saw that it mentioned that Dallas also participated in online poker, and that another son was a dealer at a real live casino. Like they are so far in and so much of their identity comes from being part of the group that the thought of just leaving would be like jumping off of a cliff? All three of those aspects are absent from the biblical directives in providing care and oversight to Gods children. ChurchOne App . Harvest members face losing their church homes over this man, yet he is planning on exporting this secret personal enrichment scheme, that is not at arms length, throughout the U.S. In an interview with the Chicago Sun Times, Jenkins said, "We feel like if people can binge watch . I share this for all who, like me, are overcome with new sadness, pain and loss amidst the HBC, Willow, Catholic church, ECFA, SBC, GFA, etc. Jmac is an uncare bear, so is Dallas Jenkins for that matter. Someone asked How high does this go? Lowlandseer: The elders [PRESBUTEROS] who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder [PRESBUTEROS] and a witness of the suffering of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed; shepherd [POIMEN] the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers [EPISKOPOS], not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly. (1 Peter 5:1-2). About how you think there is something wrong with you because you dont feel the same things that they do, and soon you come to believe that you are defective or damaged goods. My Savior stands between Regarding the tragic murder of that bear, I wouldnt be too rough on JMac perhaps he was using that as a witness to draw in rough boys from the streets of Chicago. Its time for all these leaders to stop whining as if they were the victims and demonstrate a genuine show of sackcloth and ashes before the masses they deceived the real victims who must now live with being tithe-paying participants in this scam against Holy God. During this same time period, Harvest also employed Jenkins' son, Dallas Jenkins, as executive director of Vertical Church Films. Does it matter if they were technically doing it right if it ends up with a lot of shredded Christians on the other side? He moved to Plano. All kidding aside, may you, Jessica, Ryan Mahoney, Dee Parsons, any many others who are continuing to fight the good fight be richly blessed. Made a lot of money, enjoyed the fruits of fame that was a product of his professed following of Jesus. Every man has his price, or a guy like me couldnt exist. one who rules his own house well Concerned for the vulnerable animals safety, he left his own gun by its side. Max: My understanding is that Driscoll also consulted with Gateway. (Dee). A lot to think about these days! And to link them together as a Body of Christ, each one uniquely gifted to be a part of the whole something the institutional church just doesnt appear to get. How does he know that? Amen to all those who have written shame on you., roebuck: nobody goes there anymore its too crowded. Yogi Berra, Im surprised mega churches ever become crowded since You can observe a lot by just watching. -Yogi Berra. As Max has said, its hard to see how the institutions recover from this. If GP will cave to SBC outrage over a tweet in order to GET the contract, what else might they quietly cave on for the sake of KEEPING the contract or for getting the next one? I have to admit that Philippians 1 often comes to mind as I look at these mega-messes the American church is in. If only we would listen to what Lewis was saying, we might avoid these bullies going way back who latch onto Christianity because of all the naive fools who are suckers for the Gantry/MacDonald Schick. And after a brief pause in this mission, Harvest is returning to planting more and better churches by raising up more and better Christian leaders across Chicagoland, America, and around the world. 37 were here. In 2008, the church was listed by Outreach magazine as one of the 100 fastest-growing churches in America. Lowlandseer: The NT writers frequently warn that false teachers, wolves, charlatans will enter the church to lead people astray; others are already there and will eventually show their true colours. Noevangelical, When will the madness end?! Quit trying to privatize and hide in secret that which should be public. I suspect that all of this is true, and more. No more indulgences. We celebrated Gods blessing of 100 church plants in just 14 years in 2014. The elders, set in place by God Himself (Ephesians 4:11), are to watch over, tend to and care for the flock of God. The three terms above are from the Greek language, the original language in which the New Testament Scriptures were written. Its your choiceAnonymity is not the same thing as cowardice, but thanks so much for playing that tired old game. 4107 N Steele Blvd, Fayetteville, AR, 72703, United States. In some cases these elders may be greater in years of living faithfully rather than simply age. [] its unfortunate that people are making them public. Thats a remarkably long time for the wheels to fall off. I am not suggesting that this is or is not the way Jesus intended for his church. Your newfound joy is where I, too, am seeing Gods fingerprints, and why I am holding out hope that my faith will survive. Friend: And you have the same right as the rest of us to post anonymously. He is son of celebrated Left Behind author Jerry Jenkins. But nowadays I find myself wondering what that even means. I know exactly what you mean. I dont blame the Thompsons. EPISKOPOS, translated in English is an overseer or a bishop. James MacDonald was one the most well known mega church pastors in the U.S. until he was fired from Harvest Bible Chapel, the church he founded and pastored . If you go here you can see them listed in the browser search https://duckduckgo.com/?q=the+chosen+producers+james+macdonald&t=ffsb&ia=web but when you click on the link you can see that Jenkins had the producers list altered to remove those names and place all new producers (the money) except for himself on the website. Sadly, it is not uncommon to find that in time of great loss, the church is not really there for them after all, that in case of health problems that make one unable to serve, they are quickly forgotten, that the great majority of those friendships have a tendency to evaporate or even turn to shunning if put to the test; that it was all a grand illusion, after all the time, effort and loyalty invested. If its any comfort, other steps are being taken. Covidfrom the start of the pandemic and lockdowns, the Worship and Creative Teams busied themselves with recordings, writing coronavirus updates, and developing worship environments that would be both accessible and God-honoring in the height of the pandemic. Thrilled for both of them as they start their life together. Pingback: Quote for the day | Civil Commotion, When was this statement made and to whom? able to teach Harvest Bible Chapel has fired its founder and senior pastor James MacDonald following years of controversial behavior, financial scandal and allegations of bullying and intimidation. One can attempt to form a very egalitarian group where no one is in charge, but it only works until a dysfunctional person makes a power grab. Rescuing those who have ears to hear is the best any of us can do. You need to stop looking at yourself as a victim and a good guy and admit that you are the neo-Pharisee that you really are. That was 30 years ago and it proved to be true. 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